10 April 2009

St George's day parade in Luton

Take a read of the facebook group to see the background to this potential St George's day celebration including it aims.

There is a lot more to come so please keep coming back.

The spirit of St George still lives upon England's shores, in the 'hearts, minds and souls' of many of the English people.


Facebook group:
Luton St George's day

Please click to read article:
St George's day

My arrest: L & D Express

71 comments:

Dazed and Confused said...

In the third column of the article I quote: - "an anti fascism campaigner that did not want to be named".

If fascism is an anathema, then O.K. I'll respect the views of those whom wish to follow that line, as I don't disagree myself, but tell me?... Islamic extremists are? - Fascists anyone????? - Oh sorry! - That's one of the far lefts most sainted causes - and of course we all subscribe to their beloved Communist theories, and vote in record numbers every time the Socialist Workers Party field a candidate. - Not!

On who's moral authority, are the far left now the paragons of holy virtue? - And not only that, being genuinely listened too by Luton Councillors. The only possible answer is of course New Labour, as it seems that everyone whom doesn't still blindly follow their despicable policies and thesis, is now quickly deemed both a fascist, and an enemy of our politically correct, Socialist utopia.

They've got to go!

Steve Harkonnen said...

WOW.

Right wing extremists, huh? So the leftists, who back Islamic fundamentalism and the rise of the crescent in Britain, are declaring us right wingers "extremists?"

What are they smoking?

And, are British people this gullible to continue to hold off an uprising against a government that refuses to back their own people?

What does the Queen think of this nonsense?

Anonymous said...

This is unbelievable...it sounds like something out of "1984"..!

I can't believe that in a democratic (?) country someone who has not been convicted, let alone tried, on an obviously fake charge of 'inciting racism', can be so persecuted. And by his own people.

How dare the police refuse you the right to hold a harmless,patriotic
demonstration, which all it does is honor the patron saint of your,
and their, country? Who is being provocative and 'racist' here, if not the police?

What's with them when they allow the most racist, hate-inciting, violence-provoking demonstrations by EXTRA-FAR-RIGHT Moslem imperialists in Britain today, but won't allow moderate (certainly not FAR-RIGHT) British citizens to hold a peaceful march in honor of England's patron saint? What have they been drinking in their Breakfast Tea lately?

If only it was possible to try them for denying the basic human right of peacefully celebrating a national symbol, to an unconvicted and thus 'innocent until proven otherwise' citizen.

It's just too much to bear..even for me so far away from where you are now Lionheart. May God protect you and may your persecutors be confounded.

And may England soon return to be the England I loved, but is now in the process of being....lost, maybe for ever.

Anonymous Lady

Anonymous said...

Wow I am just shocked that the people in the UK cannot peacefully assemble and voice their concerns about anything. Being an American this is something that scares me in a profound way. See, if this kind of thing can occur in Luton and other areas of the UK. When will it happen in America.

What a lot of citizens and people in the American government don't realize. Is that many of our civil rights/liberties are connected at the hip. And if you dismantle or remove just one. The other rights will come down in a domino effect...and real fast. And it appears this has already begun to happen in the UK and rest of Europe.

Do NOT give up LH...of course the Counsel and Police will attempt to find any excuse or law they can use to deny you your day of peaceful protest. And no one says you have to have a particular holiday to have your protest. Seems per the news article the counsel was concerned about safety and what protocols would be put in place to ensure the safety of the people in attendence.

My suggestion is get together with a group who already held several protest and copy what they did in how they constructed their written request and what measures they put in place to ensure safety. If you're refused after doing this. At least you have a precedence in which another organization was granted a permit to peacefully protest. Do as the muslims do. And use the laws and requirements to your advantage.

LH, we all know you don't give up. If anything, when something like this ocurs, it just makes you more motivated to achieve what you're seeking. If there is anything I can do for you from America. Please do not hesitate to ask and I will do whatever I can to see you perservere in your endeavor.

I don't like how the media had to emphasize that "an Arrested Blogger..." What does you being arrested have to do with any of this. And of course you were arrested under a BS charge and the authorities refuse to move forward on this bogus charge(s).

The Human Rights laws are ruining the UK and the rest of Europe. I saw where the priracy going on in Somalia is preplexing to the EU, when it comes to enforcing safe water passage for all vessels. How the European nations might be hesitant in providing enforcement...due to the Human Rights of the pirates. I couldn't believe that. The pirates are violating other peoples lives and then no one is able to protect the good people because the pirates have Human Rights too. No, shouldn't work that way.

If someone or an organization is a true threat to innocent people. Then it's up to ourselves, the governments of world to provide safety to them. And we all know these pirates are muslims who are giving the ransom money to the islamic cause. Once you pay the pirates, they now know they will be well paid. If you never negotiate with pirates/terrorist and give them nothing. Then they won't be so inclined to keep doing it. Now, all governments have a bigger problem to contend with.

Hang in there LH, your day will come and you will be vindicated. Your government sees you as an enemy of the state. When they don't realize or understand that you're not. In fact you're a hero of your nation. Time is getting short and short and something will happen very soon. And then we'll all have to pick which side we want to be on. I know LH, myself and others will pick the rightous side and firmly believe we shall prevail. I wish it didn't have to come down to this...but it has. God Bless you all. And a very Happy Easter and Passover to all the good people.

Anonymous said...

I find it strange the media calls Fascists "right wing". The Nazis party was called National Socialist. The only difference was that they allowed private enterprise. Other than that it was a socialist left government. Don't get me started on Canada (the left coast province) where I live) :-)

AmericanFriend said...

Lionheart, I want you to know that the great silent majority of Americans notice and appreciate the efforts of people such as yourself. It is a shame that your government has become so clouded in their motives that they have chosen to persecute you while radical muslims in England can say or do almost anything they want...to the point of advocating mass murder and insurection. It is amazing that the politically correct crowd in the UK and the US do not recognize the mortal danger that these fanatics pose to our way of life. American have fought side by side with the English in all wars and will continue to do so until the end of time. God bless you. Keep up the good work.

Anonymous said...

As one of those campaigning AGAINST your version of a march, Paul, let me make a few points.
I would equally campaign against any such march by the muslim extremists. I put them in the same bag as yourself - opposite ends of the spectrum but preaching a message of hate. A real minority - you and them make up about 5% of the population of Luton and Dunstable. The rest of us 95% just want to get on with our lives making the best of the inevitable tensions that occur on a global stage. I also have nothing against the idea of a march for England. This is why I think it is extremely good to have a tradition of St Georges Day cultural celebrations in the town centre on the 25th. You would bring a dangerous political dimension to the St Georges march you propose - either now or in June because of your reputation as someone under investigation by CPS; because you refuse to draw a distinction between extremist and mainstream muslims; because of your stated aims of bringing terrorism and immigration arguments into the themes of the march and because of the calibre of people that hang onto your coat tails ie BNP supporter Lawrence Jones, Chris Goodge (for heavens sake) and Dave Smeeton, who on Facebook openly glorifies the Portsmouth 657 hooligan crew.

Lionheart said...

Every action has a reaction Anonymous, and people like me have only arisen after the actions of militant Moslems now living in our communities.

I have never ever seen you or any like you protest against the Moslem extremists, only against the likes of me who you perceive to be an easy target, those you falsely accuse of being "fascists".

Moslems would stick a knife in your belly in broad daylight onbehalf of Allah as quick as look at you eafter all, if you did start moaning about them, so better stay on the safe side aye?

Atleast we know you are the enemy as much as militant Moslems, because you do nothing to protect the community, instead you protect those who want to destroy the community.

When are you going to take to the streets against these Islamic militants then?

I look forward to reading it in the local papers.

"You would bring a dangerous political dimension to the St Georges march you propose - either now or in June because of your reputation as someone under investigation by CPS"

I think you will find i am no longer under investigation or on police bail so that statement is unfounded and baseless, and could also be libelous.

That 5% you talk about, are pumping Al Qaeda heroin out into the community on a daily basis, killing and destroying lives and familes (a world you cannot see). That 5% are also openly radicalising and recruiting Moslems for a global Jihad to destroy the West, with events like 7/7 staged in Luton a direct result of their actions.

What are you doing about it?

NOTHING!!!

Attacking those who are actually doing something about it.

These are the lines being drawn that i talk about.

What has the 5% on my side of the fence done against the community then?

We have respected the rule of law time and time again!

You are so ignorant of the truth, yet think you know the truth.

You are deluded!!!

You think you are a community champion defending it from racists and fascists, when in reality you are nothing more than a traitor and an enemy of the British people.

A "fascists and Racist" in your own way.

Dave Smeeton is a very good friend of mine, and if he wants to promote his football team and fans then thats his business.

You and nobody else like you can stop us from gathering together and demonstrating on the streets against Al Qaeda in Britain.

And somebodies politics is their own business, its a freedom we enjoy in this country, even though fascists like you try taking that right away from people because it threatens your politics and position.

Joanne said...

How about wearing St. George Flag t-shirts and strolling down the sidewalks on the streets you want to travel down - no harm in that. Are the coppers going to stop you from a nice stroll out in the ghetto.

Happy Easter Lionheart. Thank God, He is on our side.

Anonymous said...

I believe that in most (still) democratic countries, a gathering or demonstration of less than 50 people does not need a police licence.

Here, where I live, that was the case some years ago (and I believe still is)when groups could hold rallies without getting a police permission or being harrassed by them.

True, those were a-political Animal Welfare demos but even if they had been political, it would still have been possible for us to 'congregate'.

Actually, we were soon joined by many more passersby who supported our cause. If police were there, they would sometimes remind us that as there were now more than 50demonstrators, and so as not to have a problem with the law, we should get the newcomers simply to walk around, or stand on the opposite pavement, so as not to break the under-50 clause.

Is this possible in England?

If so, would you also be allowed to have your own monitors to keep the march under control by ensuring
there would be no violence on the part of the 50 marchers(as if..!)?

And what about some sort of protection from the police in case of provocations and violence from those to whom a St. George's Day march would be an 'insult' to their sensitivities?

Or would the police prefer to arrest some of the peaceful marchers rather than those who might show their 'indignation' with placards inciting hate and violence, cursing, throwing objects
& even physically attacking, the marchers??

Anonymous Lady

Anonymous said...

But Paul - Jesus died to save moslems - ALL moslems - of Luton. What's our response to that ? He also called on you and me to be peacemakers. My problem is that sometimes I see no love in your heart, only war.On today of all days, you can understand this.

Lionheart said...

When I see that Moslem selling heroin to my neighbour as part of their Jihad to rule the World what do i do?

Turn the other cheek and walk on the other side of the road like you?

Or do i take the good Samaritan approach?

If I see that group of people spreading war and hate against my neighbour what do i do?

Bury my head in the sand and pretend it will all go away some day, just like you?

Or do what ever is in my power to stop it?

If I see that community over there threatening the very future life of the community i am from, what do i do, sit back and allow it to happen?

If there were not Christians like me throughout the ages then the World would already be Islamic.

Just remember we will both face our Judge on judgement day, and be very careful that you are not criticising the work of God, because He will judge you in this life and the next for standing against Him, whether you are one of His children or not.

As believers we know the reality of life in God, and the consequences.

When you have done something to stop the spread of militant Islam in Bedfrdshire and the country then come back and talk to me, until then stick with your campaign against me and we will see who stands up under the light of truth!!!

p.s The police know full well i have done everything within my power within the law, over the years, and this D-day march is once again going to be within the law.

We are charged with upholding society and its functioning for our children, and grandchildren.

How dangerous it would be for everyone, if there was no longer people respecting the 'rule of law'.

Contemplate on that this Easter whilst sitting back judging me based upon your own standards and blinkered liberal view of the world.

Anonymous said...

Lionheart, a great answer, a true Christian answer, to the message by the wimpy comment by the 'Anonymous' after my comment.

Cheers,

Anonymous Lady

Always On Watch said...

Western freedoms are being eroded everywhere, while the atrocities of Islam are allowed to continue.

Therefore, I'm not surprised to read this article. Saddened, but no surprised.

Lionheart said...

In today's politically correct society where the State and its functioning bodies enforces its will upon the popultaion, we the English men and women of the land who want to preserve our history, identity and culture in our own homeland are now the enemies of those at the top of the chain Anonymous lady.

We are either living through the death of a Nation like the collapse of Soviet Russia, or we are going to witness are revival within the land.

This is Christian England, not Islamic Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.

Anonymous said...

So Lionheart - which church do you go to ? Who are you accountable to spiritually ?

Joanne said...

Matthew 12:30

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."

Anonymous @ 12:30 - Muslims are against God Almighty and his Son, Jesus Christ; they are not with God; therefore, they are against God Almighty and Jesus Christ.

It is true that Jesus died to save the sinner, all sinners, but the sinner has to first ask for forgiveness, turn away from their sins, and lead a life obeying God's Commandments.

We can love our enemies, which is evident through our obeying God's commandments, but God doesn't expect us to tolerate their heathen satanic practices in our midst.

You talk about being peacemakers and having love in one's heart, but where are the peacemakers and the love in the hearts of Muslims for Christians or non-Muslims?

Britain has turned from her Christian beliefs in large numbers and until she turns back to God and obeys his Commandments, she will face the dire consequences at the hands of her enemies. Poor Britain has lost her way, but there is always hope as long as there exists those who remain loyal to God and obey his Commandments, even if there is but a remnant.

Lionheart said...

Your a joke Anonymous, you want to talk to me, question me about my faith, and you do not even have the guts to put a name to your words.

I do not need to tell you anything about my spiritual walk, but what i will say is that i am known throughout the Church locally.

If you want to talk to me, be man enough to give your real name.

Its called respect!

Joanne said...

Anonymous - we are all accountable to the Father and the Son.

John 14:6
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Churches are buildings where people assemble to be taught and to learn the Word of God.

Matthew 18:12
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

Anonymous said...

My name is Tom Woodson, Lionheart. I attend a church in Luton. It acts as a model for the way that racial harmony can lay the foundation for the spread of the gospel. I will ask you about your spiritual walk because that is what you use as the basis for your actions. It is not enough to be "known" throughout the church locally - you need to be a regular attender, accountable therefore to a local fellowship. Without that relationship,it is easy to go one's own way. I am not a member of any political party, but nevertheless I am sometimes tempted to act in a spiteful, vengeful manner in my campaigning. Thankfully my faith - encouraged by those in my church - more often than not curbs these tendencies. Do you know what, Paul, there is part of me that would be keen to meet you and sit down and talk this out. From what I have read of you, you have been through some pretty tough circumstances and who knows, if I had done so, perhaps I would have been tempted to go down the same route as yourself. What scares me off doing so is the kind of person less idealistic than yourself, who has a different motivation for focusing on the actions of Pakistani muslims. They come at it not from a faith, but from a race perspective. Either with a political perspective (see Nick Griffins Easter message today on the BNP site) or from the crude perspective of the MIG, who finds anyone of difference a threat. If I were to risk revealing more of my identity, then 10 minutes away on the internet and anyone could find out my house and therefore put my family's safety at risk. You take that risk but I cannot afford to. So - when it comes to the march I don't so much have a problem with yourself - clearly you are not a fascist - but your views act as a rallying point for those with racist views and those with a more extreme political stance, which verges on fascism. I am keen to debate - to dialogue - perhaps you too would be keen to understand my perspective, rather than engage in mud-slinging via the local press.

Lionheart said...

Tom, you are no authority over my life, so you telling me "you need to be a regular attender, accountable therefore to a local fellowship" is your own opinion and judgement, i do not believe there is anything scriptural that says that this is the dogma of Christianity. There are enough examples throughout the Bible of servants who were not accountable to a Church i.e a fallible Pastor!

21st Century Church politics, on how people like you put God's spirit in a box, it is my/our way or the high way.

You underestimate the 'Almighty', almighty being the operable word, meaning He is not limited to your little human box.

To be honest Tom, meeting you would be pointless and irrelevant, you have nothing i want to hear from your self righteous holier than though position.

I did see Nick Griffins Easter message and thought it was very very good and inspirational.

It seems that they are the only ones willing to defend and uphold Christianity in this country, as for me i will trust in God to bring about the changes within them to make them the people He wants them to be. As you know there is nothing impossible with Him, and you should not judge these people who God is doing a work with and through.

With regards to the MIG's, they are born and bred Luton, and this is their community where this is unfolding, and i would rather stand on their side of the fence than your side of the fence any day of the week because they see the World around them the same as I do, only i now have my faith in Jesus Christ.

I can walk with these people with my faith at the core of who i am, can you? If not do not stand in judgement of them!

You will never see or understand how i see the world because we are both coming from a different perspective based upon life experience, so just be careful you do not judge me any more than you have already because you know the consequences.

You are seriously misguided Tom.

You talk about your church being a model for racial harmony, every church is a model for racial harmony because God created man equal. Its just that Moslems given half the chance would be burning them down just like in Serbia, with people like you sitting inside.

Be very careful Tom about your stance and position here, because you have chosen to knock on my door, not the other way around.

Take a step back an evaluate your thinking here, and if you believe without a doubt that you are right, then i would gladly debate you.

Anonymous said...

Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)
25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


Paul - this is the most often bible verse used to back up the benefits of regular church attendance.

Do you agree with the recent BNP ad campaign ?

http://www.christianpost.com/Intl/General/2009/03/new-bnp-ad-campaign-to-feature-jesus-christ-30/index.html

I understand, if not agree on your analysis of muslims. I disagree however, that every one is inevitably plotting my destruction and that of Christianity. I understand that Islam is an evangelical faith, but Christianity faces other threats as well - secularism, materialism - just as Christians faced in biblical times. Perhaps you see that Richard Dawkins and the capitalist system is plotting our downfall in a similar way to Islam, but we can't see a conspiracy around every corner - that would make us paranoid. I have researched the lifestyles of several MIGs and some lead lives focused on violence, fear and intimidation - in the pubs, towards the police, at football grounds. They make strange allies for you. Just because you share a common enemy, it doesn't make them your friends.

Dazed and Confused said...

When the far left on this very thread witter on about mainstream Muslims in Britain is This to what they refer?

And as we're all painfully aware they will NEVER march or protest against any radical Islamist congregations, as it clashes violently with their despicable left wing ideology.

Elan-tima said...

Its always the same. With Tom here in the comments box and in the article it seems that those who are easy targets because they follow the law and respect authority are the ones that are abused, refused and dumped on. You want to peacefully march with British Elan on St George's day and show your pride in your soldiers and your deemed extreem. While those who threaten (which is usually illegal) seem to get there way.

I've been following you now for about a year Lionhart and since then things seem to be turning your way. Keep fighing the good fight until Britain, and civility prevails. They aren't ignoring you or your fellow patriots cries anylonger. Now there trying to suppress them. Thats one step closer to success. Next is the debate faze which you seem to be ready for.

Elan-tima

Lionheart said...

Thank you Elan-tima.

Anonymous: Who i choose to associate with or allie myself with has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with you, you live your life and i will live mine, so stop thinking with your self righteous attitude that you can tell me what i can or cannot do. You talk about researching peoples lives, which brings to mind Jesus sitting down with the drunkards and the sinners rather than the self righteous, so remember that in the future as you live your Christian life, judging those you deem less than yourself in society.

The scripture you quote does not say "You must of else", its a guidline, a scriptural teaching, and if we all lived perfect lives where the storms of life did not effect us then we would all be happy to meet together as if it was a perfect world we were all living in, not all of us live happy peaceful lives which makes it awkward sometimes meeting together.

I have debated this point with people i have never met, who i respect and class as friends and family in the faith because of that respect gained from talking about this point with them.

I know my own personal case, and think of those who i know are sick so cannot make it to the meeting every week as the self righteous like you would want them to.

There are 3 types of Moslem, Religious, Cultural and Apostate, and every religious Moslems wants to convert you into a Moslem or a Dhimmi, just like every practising Christian wants to convert the non-believer into a Christian.

With regards to the BNP, i think anyone standing up for Christianity is a good thing, and it is a whole debate in itself "The BNP & Christianity"

One thing i will say is go and read the teaching of Jesus and the woman who talks about even the dogs having the crumbs. Jesus would be called a racist and a bigot today if he said such a thing.

So do not be quick to judge others because of your politics, when you do not know what God is doing.

Lionheart said...

The crumbs from the table.

What would the politcally correct brigade say to Jesus?

"Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, 'Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.' But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, 'Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.' But He answered and said, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, 'Lord, help me!' And He answered and said, 'It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.' But she said, 'Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.' Then Jesus said to her, 'O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.' And her daughter was healed at once." (Matthew 15:21-28; cf. Mark 7:24-30).

Anonymous said...

Mr. Tom Woodson. You sound like a good man, a kind Engishman, but also like a Trembling Christian who insists in "seeing the best" in everyone, even as they stand over you with their machetes in pursuit of your personal demise (or enslavement) and the complete demolition of Christianity (and Judaism, not to speak of other
'infidel' religions).

Being optimistic, 'understanding' and full of Christian 'love' even for one's enemies (who have no intention of changing their evil ambitions) may be very worthy but, in the end, it has not worked so far and never will.

The Bible puts it most succinctly.
"There is a time for war and a time for peace; a time to live and a time to die[ a time to love and a time to hate."

Whilst 'Do not murder' is one of the 10 Commandments, there is also an old Jewish adage which warns those in danger from being slain
'to rise up first and slay those who come against you to slay you..'

Jews also have their own appease-ment crowd we call the Trembling Israelites. They defend and even support the Moslems' hostile anti-'infidel'programme of World Conquest and Domination, actively encouraging the Moslems to destroy Israel and its entire Jewish population. These Moslems also seek to kill every Jew worldwide, including those blind and silly
'appeasing'Jews who run with the Islamic Imperialist pack, against their fellow Jews, Christians & others.

I would also be most obliged if you could explain the following! Why is it that although the vast majority of Moslems settlers in Britain support and encourage anti-British activities, including terrorist attacks, it is mainly British Jews who are being verbally and physically attacked by both Moslems and their Leftwing Extremist native British collaborators (incl. politicians,
intellectuals, educationalists, the arty-crafty crowd and even some C-of-E leaders!!). One sees this 'strange bedfellowship' cooperation in the violent 'anti-war (but pro-Moslem & palestinian
Terrorism)demonstrations held so frequently in Britain lately.

I hope you can find the time, and
energy, to pen me your answers.

Anonymous Lady

Lionheart said...

Thank you for your insightful comment Anonymous Lady

God bless you

Anonymous said...

There is a debate going on here between committed Christians, Lionheart and Tom. Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:34-5). I would be thrilled if you did meet each other as I trust that the Holy Spirit would then bring you into unity in a way that is not possible through computer media.

Anonymous Lady, Tom Woodson might be willing to accept persecution for his view of the situation, like Jesus was. That is not 'trembling'. The early church accepted three centuries of persecution and won the Roman Empire without killing anybody. (NB In answer to your question about why Jews always get persecuted: because Jews remain in covenant with God, and Satan therefore hates them, but they are not yet willing to embrace their great protector Jesus/Yeshua. I am a gentile Zionist Christian and I will always be grateful to the Jews for my Messiah.)

When Christians fail to converge it is often because of deeper issues underlying the discussion that have not been identified. Maybe these issues would emerge in considering the following questions, to some of which answers can be found in the Bible.

* To whom does the earth belong, God or man? (Specifically, to whom does our island belong - God or the British?)

* Does God ever act in judgement and usurp nations for their sins?

* Has our nation slid into serious sin in the postwar era?

* How can we enact Jesus' command "Love your enemies" in this situation?

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

Tom: You wrote: "As one of those campaigning AGAINST your version of a march, Paul, let me make a few points. I would equally campaign against any such march by the muslim extremists..."

Your wording suggests that you DID campaign against Lionheart's march, but only passively advocate campaigns against muslim extremist marches. That is quite a revealing difference. Have you ever campaigned against muslim marches, all of which are dominated by extremists in practice?

I have exactly the same reservations as you about the way Lionheart goes about things, but I worry that you are selectively against the liberty of marching. Remember the comment attributed to Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you say but I will die for your right to say it."

All three of us are Christians (and hopefully are well settled in congregations with good leaders, which I agree is important), so let's discuss this in light of our greater unity in Christ.

Gospeller

Lionheart said...

Thank you Gospeller for your honest opinion and observation.

It seems those like "Tom" do not hesitate to protest and actively work against anyone wishing to voice their concerns about militant Islam, or unite peacefuly as a community on the streets, instead of working against, and protesting against, the militant Islamics hell bent on destroying our country.

People like "Tom" percieve the English community, black white yellow of brown as the easy option for their 'doogooding' work.

Whilst all along the evil of Islam continues to spread unabatted.

The lines are being drawn, and they will be defended.

Dazed and Confused said...

Lionheart:

New labour M.P. Kerry McCarthy yesterday, made a huge song and dance about far right riots in Luton town centre.

Iv looked in all forms of media (both local and National) and can't find a solitary reference to this alleged trouble.

As Lutons your own personal stomping ground, could I please ask: Was she telling lies?

Lionheart said...

D & C: This is what Luton police and the local paper had to say abut the events in Luton town centre yesterday.

http://www.ldexpress.co.uk/ldexpress/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=408071

AnAmericanfriend said...

Lionheart....and whoever is "monitoring" this site,

If the government is eager to pursue perpetrators of so-called "hate speech", they might want to check out a blog that recently sprang up. It appears to originate within the UK..or at least it appears to be directed at an audience within the UK. While Lionheart does not incite violence or criminal activity, this site clearly does. I'm sure the authorities will do the right thing. They have been very diligent about protecting the fragile emotions of the likes of Anjem Choudry while denouncing those who threaten humanity...like Geert Wilders. This is the address:

http://zaademujahid.wordpress.com

Anonymous said...

LH, you could get your own website and have the website managed from another country. Many websites do this to avoid any problems or criminal prosecutions from their respective countries. I know in America a web hosting site is not obligated to turn over context or contents of a website hosted there to another nation. Provided the laws are not being broken in the USA which is the website host. And due to America's 2nd Amendment law, they could turn your site over to the UK authorities. Just a thought to pass onto you. And I know a website cost money to be hosted per month. But, maybe you can have a small fee per month which would go to hosting your site and not set up for you in which you're trying to profit from it. I know I would spend the money for the monthly fee, even how you currently run your blog now. Which a new posting every so often and not on a daily basis. Why would I do this, because I believe you have a lot to say and I like what you project to your reader. I'm confident others who peruse your blog would be willing to spend a small amount per month to ensure your message get out to the world. You could charge something like $4.50 a month and with enough people it would cover the monthly hosting fee. Something to look into if you feel the UK authorities are monitoring your site in an effort to build a case against you.

And off course the threads and commenting section would be for members only and memebers would have to be approved by you.

And I absolutle agree with AnAmericanFriend....seems your govt. walks on egg shells when it comes to Anjem Choudy who I have witnessed first hand in preaching hate and definitely in violate of the UK and EU Human Right Laws, as well as the Incitement of Hate Laws. Yet nothing is done about him. And then all you're doing is reporting the facts thats going on in Luton and the rest of the UK. Not once have I seen you incite hatred or tell people to go out and mess with muslims. Is there equality in the UK in your supposed multi-culturalism...I think not. Your being "persecute" in the biggest way. And others are getting away with it when they aren't even attempting to hide their message of hate and doing literal physical harm to non muslims of the UK.

When it comes down to it. Sooner or later the truth of these matters surfaces and you'll be vindicated. I admire your bravory and willingness to not give in to the authorities. Sure it looks bad for you. But, you refuse to allow anyone push you around and you been open and honest from the beginning. These actions will not go un-notice. And there's a reason the cops haven't further pursued your case. Because they know they don't have one. Therefore, they have to use intimidation in hopes you will cave in.

Best thing any person can do who lives in Europe or America...is know your rights and know them well. So the cops can't intimidate and push people around because they're ignorant of their rights.

I was recently pulled over by a cop for speeding. And the cop asked nicely if he could search my vehicle. Now, I was acting suspicious and had nothing that would indicate I had some sort of illegal contraband. I simply was speeding and admitted it. I expected to get a ticket and was willing to send in the fee to take responsibility for my actions. But, the cop was just adamant and said this corridor of the highway is highly used for transferring drugs and other illegal stuff. I still refused his request and sited the 4th amendment. That no one shall search a car, dwelling and so on due to unreasonable search and ceasure, without a warrant. The cop even said he could hold me there and detain me (which means I'm not under arrest) and bring a drug dog. And I told him go ahead you're just wasting your and the K-9 unit's time. He finally backed off and just gave me my ticket. Point being is every day average people need to know their rights and more importantly exercise those rights.

Another time I was transporting my shotgun which was in a gun case and a cop wanted to see the weapon which he can upon request. But, I told the cop there is "no ammo" in my Jeep and the shotgun has a "lock" on it too. Which the lock isn't necessary. I told the cop I was bring the weapon into a gun shop to have some work done on it and to have an accessory added to it. And I also have a licesne to carry a handgun concealed and transfer a weapon. Though I presented the cop with my concealed weapons permit that wasn't good enough. He still asked a lot of stupid questions. In america you don't even need to have any kind of license or permit to transport a weapon. Simply because someone could be doing what I mentioned above, or they're going target shooting, etc. I didn't even have to have a lock on it which prevents it from being loaded or fired. But, more and more seems our governments are making us live in a dracononing state. I told this cop, that the law abiding citizens like me who have guns are responsible with them and we follow the law to the letter. But, if they encounter someone who's a bit suspicious or out of place when transporting a gun. The cops sometimes doesnt do a thing, because they're affraid that it will be construed as being bias and racist. How we allow our governments to do this is beyond me.

But, the people are beginning to speak out. And in large numbers in which we can no longer be ignored when it comes to our concerns. All across America today (April 15th). We're having peaceful assembly and protest in how we're dis-satisfied in how our government is handling things. And not a thing the cops can do about it. We are calling them "Tea Parties" which we all know what the Tea Party represented in our history. Our voices have just as much as a right to be heard as anyone else. And I always notice when we do these sort of things, we follow the law to the letter, like you mentioned so many times...LH. Whereas, other groups disregard the laws and then get away with it. What's up with that. In time I believe we will have our day in the Sun and see victory. Though we don't see this as some kind of a contest and something we will enjoy. We're simply doing what we feel is right for our countries. And we ensure that our countries remain ours. Sorry for the long post. But, I'm getting sick and tired of the unfairness we face when we are not the perpetrators but truly the victims. And our voices are being ignored. G-D BLESS you all. And never give up. Which I know many of us will refuse to do. Respectfully, Hellzbellz.

Tom Woodson said...

Gospeller
You are right in that my resistance of muslim extremist in Luton is passive, in the same way that my opposition to other issues : gun crime, globalisation, secularism, povert is passive. As someone in work with a young family, I have only so much time to give. Obviously there is a security threat to the UK from muslim extremists, but I can leave the security forces and police to deal with that. As for their demos - absolutely I am against that - but I am more interested in giving the 95% in the middle a voice (not far-right, not muslim extremists) and that will be a focus of mine in weeks to come.
The website / blog http://www.reconciliationtalk.com/ has much to commend it, I feel.

Lionheart - I have thought about what you say but I interact with muslims on a daily basis both in Luton and at work and I fail to see an inherent plotting at the heart of their devotion (or not) to Allah. Obviously drugs are dealt by Pakistanis in town and that is wrong, but I no more blame the entire religion for the acts of a few than I blamed the Irish community when the IRA were bombing London.
I see the young pakistani family down my street who we befriended over christmas; my young moroccan friend at work whose kids play with mine; my ex-work colleague who I am in contact with over Facebook (she makes snowmen with hijabs, by the way.) I thin Jesus wants us to be wise about the evils in our society at the same time as reaching out to individuals in love. I am sorry that some readers might interpret this as "wimpy," or "dogooding," but I am afraid that this is the way of the cross, folks.
As gospeller said, how do you go about loving your enemies, Lionheart ?

Anonymous said...

To Tom,
As I pointed out before, you are obviously a good man. You want to see good in all people (me too?) and that is 'good' as far as it goes.
However, the good British people tried to do the same with Nazi Germany before WW2. Much of the population really tried its best
to see the 'good' side of Nazism and its leader, such as ending unemployment by employing the
unemployed in building autobahns, etc. However, much of the re-employment of Germany's working
force was used, at first surrepticiously, in rebuilding its heavy arms factories in the Ruhr, an 'hostile' act forbidden to defeated Germany in the Armistice signed after WW1.
No one wanted to hurt the feelings of 'good' Germans(of whom there were many)so no one pointed out the dangers of a rearmed, racist Germany EXCEPT those few, who no doubt you would call 'doubting Thomases' who, try as they might to be good and tolerant and hopeful and forgiving, saw right through the imperialist 'jihadist'
ambitions of the Nazis (and their often charming, fellow-travellers in Britain itself).
The worried, doubting Thomases warned the nation of the evil military intentions of that racist and TERRORIST regime and were castigated as 'warmongers' who refused to 'love their enemies', to 'turn the other cheek', to submit to evil.
One of those worried, farsighted people was Winston Churchill,
Britain's greatest PM ever. On how Hitler came to power, he declared that "the malice of the wicked was reinforced by the WEAKNESS of the virtuous."
Churchill also recognized the dangers presented by militant, fanatic Islam,long before it was brought to England's Fair and Pleasant Land: "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!Besides the FANATICAL FRENZY, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
"The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
"A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.
"The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses
the social development of those who follow it.
"No stronger RETROGADE force exists
in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a MILITANT and PROSELYTIZING faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, RAISING FEARLESS WARRIORS at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe MIGHT FALL, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."
[Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899)]
And last by not least, let's not forget what a great British philosopher (Edmund Burke, 1729-1795)said about tolerating,'coming
to terms with,' or ignoring, or submitting, or collaborating or worse, with evil: "All that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to do absolutely nothing."

Anonymous Lady

Anonymous said...

Dear Tom: Gospeller here. I think that I am closer to Lionheart about the problem, and closer to you about what to do about it. I heartily wish we could leave it to the security forces and police to deal with Islamic extremism; so far as I can tell they seem to be doing a good job of finding Muslims who are actively working on terror plots in UK, but there are blatant double standards in what marches the authorities allow and on whom they arrest for incitement; and all the hard work of the security forces would not be necessary if only we had sane (by which I don't mean racist) immigration policies.

I acknowledge and am glad that many Muslims are peaceful, but please bear in mind that most revolutions are led by a small minority of zealots who know how to whip up less ideologically minded followers by promising booty. Please read Suras 8 and 9 of the qur'an - the ones commanding physical fighting until Islam prevails universally. Note that NASKH (the 'doctrine of abrogation') means these verses take precedence over the earlier, peaceful verses which Muslims quote to Westerners (the qur'an is not collected in chronological order). When Muhammad repeatedly called some of his followers hypocrites he was referring to the ones who would not pick up arms. Some 40% of Muslims want Sharia in heavily Muslim suburbs, and this proportion is rising not falling. The higher Muslim birthrate, and immigration, means that the Islamic proportion of the population will soon exceed the proportion of communists who took over Russia a century ago. We have a problem.

What to do about it? We Christians believe that Jehovah God is in complete charge of his creation, so we need to ask why He is letting Islam rise in our land before we can formulate a response. (NB Jehovah is not Allah, because Allah denies that Jesus is his son which Jehovah would never do. They both claim to have created the world but what if one is not telling the truth?) It is a principle of history that God sends judgement on nations that go too far in violating the moral law which he has written on the human heart. A (secular) study between the wars (JD Unwin, 1934) found that every culture to go from sexual continence to promiscuity, and wreck its family stability, fell within 2-3 generations, which I take to be God at work. I believe Islam is God's impending judgement on the sexual sins that have caused mass family breakdown since the 1960s. I for one find it hard to ask God for mercy for our nation when it means the continuation of dozens of abortions every day. To get out of our present jam we need to stop the subsidy of family breakdown by taxpayers' money, which is partly driving the problem, AND be prepared to deal with Islamic civil disobedience on a scale at least matching the worst of Northern Ireland. I would support a government prepared to do both of those things (one without the other is useless) and I profoundly hope that a political party will soon stand on such a platform.

As for what we Christians can do at ground level, we are to love individual Muslims. There is no contradiction between that and being against Islam, for St Paul told the Ephesians that our battle was against spiritual forces of darkness, not flesh and blood. Indeed it is our love for Muslims that should make us want to offer them the way of Christ. This must be done if necessary at risk to ourselves, and certainly non-coercively. We are commanded simply to give people an informed choice; after that it is up to them and the Holy Spirit.

Tom Woodson said...

Gospeller

A thoughtful contribution - thank you. I agree at lot with your analysis about how to proceed, although I acknowledge that we differ over the extent to which the spread of Islam could / should be perceived as a problem. Having worked amongst the Bury Park community as a teacher, I came to appreciate the benefits of the Indian / Pakistani / Bengali extended family in terms of stability, sexual abstinence, aversion from alcohol and family support for education. I agree about the drift of social trends since the 60s and to some extent, the "Asian" community presents something of an ideal for wider Bristish society. Of course individuals within these families do work against these ideals - sometimes to a great extent. Perhaps we should align this closer with issues to do with class rather than faith or race.
Tom

Anonymous said...

Yes absolutely Tom, superior Muslim family stability is exactly why God is raising them to take this land away from secularism unless we British change our behaviour. We must offer Christ to secular people which would improve their sexual morality, and at political level campaign that taxes no longer subsidise immorality. Our stats for divorce, extramarital births, children living with one parent have rocketed from a stable 2-5% for many centuries to 50% today, in one generation. Ugh.

Gospeller

Tom Woodson said...

That's right.

Lionheart where are you ?

Since you've been away Gospeller and I have put the world to rights.
Want us to go over it with you ....? lol

Anonymous said...

Tom

What do you suggest we all do, convert to Islam?

Lionheart said...

Thank you anonymous.

Tom Woodson said...

Well hardly, seeing as I want everyone to convert to Christianity. I don't stand a chance of doing that unless I have a ministry of reconciliation.

Anonymous said...

Tom Woodson, I would call you a dickhead, but that would be innapropriate for someone as naieve as your goodself.
You obviously have had your head somewhere dark and warm for a long time, if you think that there is some natural ability of the Islamic Tendancy to have, "superior family stabilty."
This supposed stability is a charade.
There are proportionatly more heroin addicts and alchohol abusers in that community than the other. (Shall we dare to call the other, "white (or black) British?"
Not only does 95 per cent of all heroin come from Afghanistan/Pakistan, (they grow it there afterall, (is it racist to mention this fact?) but a good proportion of it flows through Luton.
This is nothing new. Lionheart has been repeating this for a long time.
The British Press report on it daily.
Many, many businesses in Luton and other similar towns are set up for the dealing of heroin (and now cocaine/crack) as fronts, in much the same way as the Mafia practised.
Do you like to think that your children are growing up in a town where those in authority do sweet F.A about the massive trade in drugs and crime that goes on under their noses?
At the same time, many legitimate businesses are founded on the profits of drugs.
It is caslled money laundering, and do you think the authorities do not know just what is going on?
When this happens in Mafia controlled Societies, it is usually found that the Mafia have to pay-off the cops so the trade can go on.
The intelligent reader may wish to draw their own conclusions or not, about why not one of these ex-Colonial illicit trading situations have ever been busted in Luton, except by accident for instance, when a taxi was stoppped and they found hundreds of thousands of pound of "gear" in it's boot.
You see dear Tom et al, it's a game.
Nobody gives a f===.
You could be knocked off, have your features burnt off with acid, and your body chopped up and dropped all over the countryside, including as we recently saw, around the borders of your town about five miles away, and another town just like Luton, with a rubbish footbal team and the same ex-colonial ties,.. Leicester.
You must have seen the details on your TV.
So much for your Labour governments "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime," ha ha ha what a load of cobblers!

Of course they will pick on Lionheart, just as they picked on Damien Green, M.P. and no doubt future Minister, for daring to speak out about the terrible lapses in Security such as employing illegal immigrants to clean inside Westminster.

When this torrid little bunch of puke-provoking Gordon Turdites are lashed and shredded, at the next election, at least some fresh start can be made to find what it was that made Britian the place in the world where so many want to come to live, and not just for the Social handouts on offer.

You want to do something about it?
Find out for yourself?
Well get yourself some body armour and make some enquiries around the fringes of you little clan of do-goodies who "like to build snowmen out of religious head-garb." as you put it.

Nice people like you, Tom, should move to a cleaner town, if you can find one, where the waters are not so muddy, for one day you might find yourself with a sharp learning experience at the hands of some un-solubrious charachter out there.
You sound like you would never recover from the shock.
Luton has become a cess-pit of vice and drugs, you are just unaware of the tidal river of corruption that flows beneath your feet.
Christ did not come to mend the World's wicked ways, only, but to drive corruption from God's Temple.
His message would tear families apart, and turn father against son.

The Roman Empire and the illegitimate Priests drove the nails into his limbs.
Are you ready to make the same journey?

Don't worry, there is another way, just remember what it says above the mosque entrance, "There is NO GOD except Allah...."
Something for you to think about Tom.
And they really mean it, Man!

Anonymous said...

Having read this article and the FaceBoook journal, I want to say to those that try to stop peaceful legitimate Marhes or Demonstrations,
"Go ahead and stop them!"

It is the most certain way for you to create a wave of protest so great you will never stop it, you will be washed away.
Feeling cock-sure of your precious, puny powers to interfere with a movement of ideas and emotions that is far deeper than you can imagine?

Look back a few years and see what happened in Poland when the Communistas like yorselves were swept into oblivion and left without a hope of recovery.
It was called Solidarnosc,
Solidarity.

Your time is nearly over.
The call to Solidarity against the anti-Patriotic Forces of darkness and ignorance has gone out.
The cat is out of the bag and your goose is cooked!

You cannot succeed and the more martyrs you make, the quicker will be the end of of your tyranny.

True Britain will rise in Solidarity and declare you obsolete.

Joanne said...

Tom-

"Who is my neighbour?" Luke 10:29-37

The Samaritan who helped the man who was stripped and assaulted, was the neighbour, not the priest who passed on the other side or the Levite who passed along.

How do I love my neighbour?

I keep God's commandments.

How do I love my enemies?

I keep God's commandments.

1 John 5:1-3 "Every one who believes that Jesus is the Messiah is born from God; and every one loving the Father should love His offspring. We know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and practise his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we should keep His commands; and His commands are not burdensome."

I do not break God's commandments and sin against God, my enemies, or my neighbour because I show my love for God by keeping his commandments. No one is saying that you shouldn't love your neighbours, Muslims or not, in the sense that you should not break God's commandments. Lionheart isn't breaking God's commandments.

Does a Muslim live by such principles? No Muslim is beholden to any non-Muslim is any way, shape or form. Just remember that, before you place your neck out for those who are not required to love you, but the exact opposite is expected of them. Is a Muslim who proposes to kill me and my neighbours, or support those who do, my neighbor? Hell no.

Tom, do not be such a fool, even if your intentions may be good. Go outside a mosque and hand our Bibles, and then see how you are treated by your so-called neighbours. You need a reality check. I'm not going to break God's commandments for the likes of those who belong to Islam, but I'm not going to roll over and play dead either. I stand up for God and his Son, Jesus Christ - maybe it is about time you did so yourself. Now don't go doing anything stupid.

Anonymous said...

To a couple of recent Anonymouses who slagged off Tom (and are clearly not Christians based on the violence of the language they used against him): It was me (Gospeller), not Tom, who spoke of Muslim family stability as superior to that of secular British people. I'm not going to argue it because the stats speak for themselves - go check the illegitimacy rate among British Muslims, and their divorce rate, relative to the national averages. Secular Brits like to think they are better than Muslims but I wonder whether that is God's point of view in light of those stats. There is perhaps not much love in Islam, or (consequently) in the Islamic family, but it is *stable* and is a way of life that God has permitted to survive for centuries, whereas God seems to be moving to foreclose secular promiscuity within one lifetime. Family was the first collective institution ordained by God in Genesis, and He takes it so seriously that He commanded the death penalty for adultery in the only culture where he set the laws.

If Islam is indeed God's impending judgement on secular sin unless the nation turns: judgement is a nasty thing. (I am not saying Islam is nice!) Ask the Jews who got carted off to Babylon a long time ago. But they deserved it.

Don't get me wrong, I am a patriotic Englishman who loves my country. But I love Christ and His values more. We are in sin as a nation and we must admit it. Otherwise, getting in the way of God's judgement is a sure way to be flattened.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

PS Lionheart, you do a great job of pointing out Islam's real intentions and the double standards of politically correct politicians and policemen.

Gospeller

Lionheart said...

Gospeller:

I think your message is right but 50 years too late.

This is what the Bible says it will be like in the End times.

Matthew 24:36-44 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


In my personal opinion our objective should be to reap the End time harvest before the final chapter of human history is revealed.

Look around you at the signs, not just on a personal level, but a global level.

Those like Tom can attack me, but they attack God within me.

He is the one who arrived here with his hatered towards me and others, and not the other way around.

Lke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

We are all guilty of it!

Lionheart said...

Anonymous 16-Apr-2009 23:41:00

Excellent insightful comment of a reality so far away from "Tom's" life that he has his own ill informed opinions on the matter.

He will still deny your truth in his mind, but the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and your truth is the same as my truth, we are reading from the same page of reality.

God bless you

Anonymous said...

Gospeller your analogy of using stablitiy amongst muslim and secular people is skewed. Though the stats speak for themselves. One must look at how we go to these points from both side.

For one the muslim family unity is not because they have a close knit family unit. Many studies have revealed that these familie simiply stay together due to economic reasons. And the muslims are unable to declare independence and live alone, because they can't support themselve or new family. One can still apart from the family dwelling and still be very close to their parents and other family members. Because they have the means to live on their own. Whereas, muslims families don't have the financial means to live on their own. Living together doesn't equate to family stability.

As for the stats in the divorce rate amongst the muslims and secularist. That can be explained too and again from many reknown psychologist. Islam still practices arranged marriages, regardless which nation they reside in. For a muslim to get divorced brings shame on the family. Therefore, many remain in an unhappy marriage, so not to bring shame onto the family. And usually the woman who is divorced receives NO support from her own family and she finds herself with nothing. So the muslim woman is picking the lesser of the two evils.

As for the non muslim divorce rate which is substantially higher. It has nothing to do with god per se. Maybe in some cases. But, getting married for secularist is just too easy and extremely easy to get out of the marriage. In essense, the marriage by our laws makes marriage quite disposable. Also, many people it's been ascertained that people go through an infactuation stage in a relationship and they believe it's being in love...when its not. And they marry way too soon during this stage of the relationship. To later on discover that the partner they thought they were in love with is not for them. People need to take their time in getting to know one another well to ensure their in love and can build a sustaining life together and still remain happy. Since muslims use the arranged married route, it's more like a business transaction to them. And again, divorce is out of the question because one party is reneging on the business agreement. As well as, bring shame unto the entire family.

What we have here is a society and culture difference that make up the difference in the divorce rates. And not what you mentioned above in most cases of divorce. Like I mentioned above, several studies from many different nations have been conducted and came to the same conclusions, in which I emphasized in this comment. Again, you need to not just look at the raw data and make a conclusion based on the numbers only. You need to see it from all perspectives in why the divorce occurs and what brings it on and so forth. It's why statistics is not allows the most reliable thing to count on. There are always underlying issues that contribute to these stats, which is neglected to be mentioned unless further research is done...as in the WHY it's happening. Hope this sheds some light on what you had to reveal about the differences of the divorce rates amongst muslims and non muslims. Respectfully, Hellzbellz

jockmcdoc said...

Gospeller

I posted the comment at 16-Apr-2009 20:49:00. I got myself an OpenID to avoid confusion with the other anonymous posters on this thread.

I would like to make two points about your comment at 17-Apr-2009 09:09:00

Firstly, about comparing illegitimacy and divorce rates between Muslims and non-Muslims.

It is well known that in the male dominated closed societies that Muslim communities has become in the UK, this is swept under the carpet with females mostly 'disappearing' that have brought shame on the family. I don't need to go into this, Lionheart has got examples of this on his site and it well documented in the net. As the Muslim community keeps to itself, how do we 'what goes on behind closed doors'?

Secondly, I have heard Tom and yours attitude that Muslim conservative values are superior to our own by many people online and in real-life. This is the wrong way of looking at it. Muslim values are neither superior or inferior to ours.

Our values have been denigrated by over 50 years by the left in the form of Marxists, liberal, feminists and the Gay lobby. Blame has also to be placed to the church for not having the moral backbone of not standing against this and offering an alternative.

Although I am Scottish, I have read enough to know that the Church of England seems to be more interested in promoting the values of the secular state and other religions, particularly Islam, rather than that on the Christian church.

I may not be a devoted Christian like yourself, Tom, Lionheart or the other posters on this forum but I feel while we do need to turn the other cheek and go the extra mile when necessary, however Christians need to assert their values and lead the way in offering an alternative rather than looking at other religions with what looks like envy.

Tom mentioned that Lionheart is an extremist. I guess everybody who does not represent the status quo is an extremist. The problem is that the status quo which is leading to a fractured and embattled society is no longer sustainable. It can not continue in a moral and economic sense. You have mentioned this yourself with the economic cost of the one parent family. There needs to be alternative and who says that what Lionheart believes in is not possible?

Anonymous said...

Lionheart,

I see no words of hatred toward you in what Tom wrote. He simply disagrees with you about certain things. We all three have our differences, but hopefully our unanimity in Christ is greater.

I am well into eschatology and I think that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and globalisation are two huge prophetic pointers toward the return of Jesus Christ to this earth to overthrow an evil world dictator and inaugurate universal just government (the 'millennium') at last. Looking at the prophecies and the state of the world it seems to me that the timescale to this longed-for event is more than years and less than centuries, but I cannot be more specific. The message of how Christians are to behave is in the Bible and does not change until that event. Set a personal example, love your enemies, offer Christ noncoercively to people, all this unconditionally and if necessary at risk of your own life. Where the political system permits it (as in our creaking democracy), campaign for righteous laws and for justice to be enacted impartially. Specifically in our land, stop taxpayers' money going to subsidise immorality and, if not repeal hate speech laws, then apply them to Muslims too.

We will be unable to stop our land going under to the dictator because no gentile exceptions are prophesied among the nations. Quite what happens between now and then I am not sure, but if Christ is your first love then you will be comforted and be ultimately OK.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

Gospeller here, with a few responses:

To Lionheart: I'm confused about how my message would have been more appropriate to 50 years ago, because at that time Western family breakdown was negligible and there was (non-coincidentally, I believe) no Islamic threat to Britain. These are the issues I am raising today.

To Hellzbellz and JockMcDoc: I was careful to say only that the Islamic family was stable, not that it was happy. JD Unwin's secular study "Sex and Culture" (1934) goes into this in great depth.

To Jock McDoc: Agreed in full that "the left in the form of Marxists, liberal, feminists" have been in the forefront of wrecking family stability, and (sadly) that the church's response has been feeble. Lionheart seems to want to deal with the Islamic threat without considering *why* the God in whom he and I share faith (who is not Allah) is permitting Islam to rise. My differences with Lionheart about how to respond all stem from that. I do think his blog does a great job of warning of the true intentions of Islamic community leaders, and of exposing the double standards of politically correct politicians and law enforcers.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

PS Muslims came here originally for our freedom under the rule of just law (which they preferred to Sharia), and had little thought of overthrow. It is because we failed to show commitment to the values that made us great that they became disgusted - by what they saw in the 1960s sociosexual revolution - and their next generation became proto-revolutionaries. To a large extent we have ourselves to blame.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

did you all realise that during the second World War there was a MUSLIM division of the Waffen SS?

bet you didn't, the Media don't like People to know the truth do they!

MUSLIMS are Nazi Sympathisers!

Anonymous said...

Lionheart - I posted two more comments (not from my regular computer address) to this thread, did they get lost in the e-post?
Gospeller

Anonymous said...

Seems like my two other comments did go missing, so in summary (and in response to one or two comments on this thread):

50 years ago there was negligible family breakdown in our land, and (non-coincidentally in my view) there was no Muslim threat. Those are the issues I am addressing, so I don't understand how my message would have been timely 50 years ago but is not timely today.

I was careful to say that the Islamic family is stable, not that it is necessarily happy. For the importance of stability, see the in-depth study by JD Unwin to which I referred above (Sex and Culture, 1934).

I agree that our "values have been denigrated [for] over 50 years by the left in the form of Marxists, liberals, feminists..." That is where responsibility lies for the decline in family values. And I also agree that (sadly) the church failed to give a lead.

Those of us who are Christian should consider why our omnipotent God (who is not Allah) is permitting Islam to rise here. Only then can we formulate a godly response. My differences with Lionheart all stem from this. I nevertheless think he is a great whistleblower on the intentions of Muslim leaders in Britain, and on the double standards of politically correct politicians and law enforcers.

I also think we (that is, the British) have only ourselves to blame. The first generation of Muslim immigrants came here for our social stability and freedom under the rule of just law, which they preferred to Sharia; they had no thought of overthrow. Had the British demonstrated commitment to those values then the children of those immigrants would have integrated. Instead we jumped onto the socio-sexual revolution of the 1960s. Muslims saw the resulting family instability (in which every statistic represents a human tragedy) and thought "not in our community" and turned to the militant parts of the qur'an and Islamic history, with the result that the next generation is more radical and wants Sharia in Britain.

Gospeller

Lionheart said...

Gospeller:

Look at the signs in 'all' of creation, from the elements, to man made disasters and impending disasters. Jesus said we know how to discern the seasons of our weather, so we must also be looking to discern the signs of the coming of the Son of man.

My previous comment with scripture verse, added to this, is my personal perception of the current climate.

I agree with what you say because it is foundational Biblical teaching, but before there can be heaven on Earth again, mankind must pass through the darkness like never before.

In my opinion that darkness is closing in now, and Islam is a major force of that darkness, all we can do is grit our teeth and endure what is coming and lead as many as are called, into the knowledge of the truth which leads into eternal life.

Every Nation on Earth is now contending with the ideology and driving force of the Islamic religion, because of the Worlds population increase. No Nation is immune, its just how do the people on the ground tackle it, and looking at the Middle East and most of Africa, these land masses have been Islamified over the centuries, the only reason Europe is not now Islamic is because of the Christian knights who arose to defend God's Kingdom on Earth, otherwise all of Europe would now be Islamic.

Look at your history books.

I am a Christian saved by God's grace and i am tackling this most serious of threats it in my own way because it washed up on my front door, (how long until it washes up on your frontdoor) hate me or help me, it makes no odds because "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain."

Matthew 5:14 - 16 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

I am far from perfect just like everybody else, but God is my judge nobody else.

The Islamic family is an unknown quantity because it is separate from how we live in our land, they live in forced marriages with cousins, they marry of children as young as 8 -9, the women live as second class citizens, and if anyone steps out of line they are murdered for bringing shame on the family.

Stable through fear of murder at the hands of their family.

Would you like to live like that?

So dont be comparing our lives with their lives, and do not ever state their family lives are superior to ours like Tom did.

They also live under fear of death, for if they reject Islam's control over their lives.

Islam is the most suppressive de-humanising force in the world, unless you are a man of course then you have ultimate control, even to the point of being allowed to murder people if they disagree with your religion of blaspheme the name of their child molesting false prophet.

Those first immigrants did not come here to get away from Sharia, they came here for the money that was on offer, and as time went by they realised their religious objective whilst living and bringing up children in the Dar al-Harb.

Now we are in the situation we are in, and it is only going to get a whole lot worse.

Militant Islam is based on the life and example of Mohamed, who was himself a warmonger, conquering Nations and peoples for Islam. This aspect of Islam is foundational teaching within their religion that cannot be removed. There are two ends of the spectrum remember that, and both have the same end time goal.

Transforming Britain into an Islamic State.

We are half way there already.

Lionheart

Lionheart said...

One of those times in our past history that Europe was saved from Islam, was on the tiny Island of Malta, just off of the coast of Sicily in 1565.

An amazing act of God, with 700 Knights from the Order of St John, defending the Island, and thus the whole of Europe, from a Turkish Armada of up to 40,000 troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565)

If anyone is thinking of a low cost holiday this year then this is the place to go. A place blessed by God with much history and culture which proves my point.

The Maltese all speak English too.

Anonymous said...

Lionheart,

Yes, you and I agree that these are the end times. Every gentile nation (at least) will come under a world dictator according to prophecy. Today we see secular humanism and Islam, which both aggressively claim the world and hate the church, revving up for World War III. (When the suicide bomber mentality gets weapons of mass destruction then Mutually Assured Destruction will no longer deter.) What is not clear to me is how the coming war relates to the prophecies. My best guess (and I could be wrong) is that secular humanism and Islam take each other down, because they both have vulnerabilities in the event of war: respectively the financial system, and Mecca. (If Mecca is trashed then Allah, a god of force, would be exposed as wanting in that department). Out of the wreckage comes a man who rebuilds the shattered world system around himself, like Hitler in 1930s Germany. Whether he is an apostate Muslim or originally secular I don't know.

What will come of England I do not know either. But the England I loved is already gone (thanks to secularism, not Islam) and I am glad that I have a still greater rock to cling to, Jesus Christ.

I've said about all I can say without repeating myself about the subject of family stability under secularism and Islam. Anyone who doubts me - don't take my word for it, read Unwin.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

Lionheart: Has another post of mine to this thread gone missing? It was a response to yours of 19-Apr-2009 16:24:00 and mentioned World War III. If you find it, please post it and delete this post that you are reading. If you dont find it, please post this and I'll rewrite what I said.
Gospeller

Lionheart said...

Ive found a few, let me know Gospeller if the ones you wrote are now up there.

God bless

Anonymous said...

Nothing missing now LH, thanks and God bless.
Gospeller

Anonymous said...

I am of Italian parents but born here and proud of my heritage. I am not racist or anything of the sort but if you dont have an allegiance to this country and dont want to integrate please just go, you are free to leave and do those of us that are proud to belong here a favour.

Anonymous said...

Dear Paul,

From central Europe we are folowing your blog. What's happen to Luton and all Britain is slowly starting here too.

To discredit the voce of the people who protest for the respect of there own european tradition and culture are quickly targeted as FASCISTS AND RACISTS. It's the same stategy used here too.

We are aware of this strategy but the exemple of the people of Luton and Britain encourage us to resist at this politicians who work with the "greens invadors" and their "hate preachers".

People of Luton, we are with you from all our heart and we support you with our prayers.

Together we stand !

Watcht this video. It's a reportage of Canal+, a "left-massonic" channel in France. The journalist comment are only negativ against nationalist and identitary movments who are growing up all in Europe and just targeted as racist and fascist. Just look the images, because they are the only true reality from what is slowly growing up in Europe. There is 6 videos call ASCENSEUR 1-6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9_58Ki3tgY

Voice of Central Europe

Anonymous said...

To those who praise Moslem marriages as stable, please do remember that the 'husband' can have 4 wives at a time, and if he gets a yen for another poor women (or 3) he can divorce the first
one[s] just by saying "I divorce you" three times and that's that. Then he can get hitched to the more appealing next 4.

Some marriages are terminated by another age-old and very 'stable' Moslem marriage custom...the
decapitation of the no-longer appealing, or rebellious, wife without fear of being hanged from the nearest palm tree.

Indeed, 99% of the time, Moslem husbands get away with just a slap on the wrist for committing the most atrocious atrocities to their wives (sisters, daughters, mothers,
aunts, even grandmothers)

This is also starting to happen even in democratic non-Moslem countries because their judicial systems can be convinced that the beheading was not an act of murder, but simply a Moslem tradition.

There is such a case now brewing in the USA, where a prominent Moslem who had served on an advisory panel of 'moderate' Moslems under President Bush, cut off his wife's head when it became clear that she wanted a divorce. No wonder some'infidel' men with murderous (and/or polygamous) inclinations convert to Islam....!

But one wonders what on earth infidel women find in converting to Islam (e.g. journalist Yvonne Ridley who was abducted by the Taliban a few years ago and became enchanted by them and obviously by their tradition of cruel & bloody repression of women! I also saw TV and internet programmes of some other befuddled Englishwomen who had converted, or were going to).

I can only surmise these women must have a very low estimation of themselves, coupled with a lot of masochism and even a death wish...!

Although Judaism and Christianity were also in the past intolerant towards their women (and still retain some imperfections) women in those religions are free from the terror, repression, suppression
& 'honour killings' which stalk Moslem women. If they could, I suspect millions of Moslem women would convert to Christianity and even to Judaism.

Anonymous Lady

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous Lady:

I have been careful not to say that the Muslim family is happy, but that it is stable. Unless you are lucky or believe in the true God then you won't get more than that in view of sinful human nature. Also, anecdotes are no substitute for statistics.

People convert from secular humanism to Islam because it gives them a meaning to their lives, which is what people crave - even above abhorrence of cruelty.

Gospeller

Anonymous said...

When you insist on marrying your close cousins, then the outer appearance of the family will certainly appear "close."
Luton has many hoses next to eachother, where the neighbours are all intemarried and live in eachothers pockets and can be controlled by the male adults.

Anonymous said...

Indeed; I am told that that the incidence of genetic diseases is much higher in the Islamic community because of the higher incidence of marriage of relatives - a statistic that the government of course does not publicise. Historically, intermarriage of relatives took place to keep property etc in the family.

Gospeller